White Wolf has been riding a rough PR storm of late. Problems started when they announced Zak Sabbath was a writer on Vampire: the Masquerade. Sabbath divides people; he has some very loyal fans (some of whom may have crossed lines while defending him) while others accuse him of manipulative and hateful harassment. It’s worth noting that controversial authors and consultants have been appointed by other RPG publishers, including Wizards of the Coast for Dungeons & Dragons, and that White Wolf subsequentially investigated Sabbath and did not conclude he should be removed from the project.
However, the spotlight was firmly on the company.
Some fans raised concerns based on some of the content in the free to download Vampire: tM 5e preview. These concerns ranged from the use of ‘Triggered’ to describe a Brujah discipline to suggestions that pro-Nazi symbols and other dog whistles had been hidden in plain sight in the book.
It won’t surprise you know that the debate got heated, quickly. I suspect it won’t surprise you to discover that in-game and out-of-game was sometimes getting blurred by some of the loudest voices in the debate. For example, a vampire who happens to be a Nazi is an in-game/in-world situation. Whereas, a publisher hiding pro-Nazi numbers in game mechanic examples in a real-world/out-of-game issue.
White Wolf, I think, did the right thing. First, they published a clear rebuttal that they have any neo-Nazi sympathies and then they ran an hour-long Twitch stream to take questions and answers from a concerned audience.
That Twitch stream has just finished. It is my hope that White Wolf and/or Paradox (their owners) will make the video public later. What follows is a brief write up of my hurried notes.
On camera was Jason Carl, the Producer of the 5th edition of Vampire: the Masquerade. He was taking questions in real time and, I think, answering them directly and clearly. He did well.
Fuck the alt-right
One fan, ‘vonigner’, put a blunt ultimatum to him.
Will you openly tell the “fuck SJWs sensitivities” alt-righters and neo-nazis who have been using RPGs as a recruiting grounds since Age of Conan that the WOD is NOT for them ?”
Jason Carl and White Wolf did so. He began by explaining that both vampires and Nazis are monsters. He noted that including some (brief) neo-Nazi references in the game are examples of types of vampires people might encounter and not endorsements.
In fact, he went further than that. If you’re part of a hate group like the neo-nazis then they don’t want your money. You’re not even welcome in the community.
But Carl admits they made mistakes.
The ‘1488’ example in the mechanics was a mistake which made them upset. The numbers have been changed and when the dog whistle was called out the preview was removed from their site.
Other mistakes include the use of ‘triggered’ with the Brujah. Carl says that it was an error, another one that made them feel bad, and they’ve learnt that some people use it a pejorative while others encounter it in very real and important mental health sessions. It has been removed.
What about the left?
Another user, BasileosAlexios, tried to flip the question, asking;
Jason will you disavoew Antifa and other segregationist left wing movements just the same as you disavoewed right wing hate movements or not, that’s a simple question
Carl disagreed it was a simple question and refused to tackle it as such. However, he was unequivocal in that White Wolf and the Vampire team would reject and oppose any group that used hate speech and promoted an agenda of hatred.
What will White Wolf do differently?
White Wolf via Carl has acknowledged that they want to be more global and representative. The strong suggestion was made that license partners might well be making global sourcebooks.
The company wants to be more aware and respectful of a diverse audience including transgender community.
In the future playtest periods will be longer and use a broader audience.
You can follow White Wolf and look for the video archive of this conversation at Twitch TV.
Update: White Wolf have released the video of the Q&A.
Image credit: Edouard-Georges Emonet of a Vampire: The Masquerade character called Ingrid Babelheinseil. Ingrid is the puppet Prince of a Nazi vampire. Emonet stresses how much he hates the Nazis. The picture is released under Creative Commons.
So… clear statement against people from the far right. Good. No clear statement against people from the far left. Bad. But typical in these times.
Though I was a consultant on 5e and present in Stockholm at the beginning of the project, as a freelancer I don’t represent White Wolf in any capacity.
Earlier I addressed the concerns of the author of the original article that started this controversy:
Paradox is a big videogame company and has to act a certain way about public statements, I don’t. Here are the answers to the cartoon dog guy’s questions:
Who is the target audience of the game? The target audience is both the existing fanbase (for RPGs in general and White Wolf) plus younger people who may not have thought of playing RPGs before who are into a similar but modernized and more diverse aesthetic. The original White Wolf brought in a lot of new gamers, especially women, and the new one is trying to do an equivalent thing. You may have noticed the very prominent latina and black characters in, for example, We Eat Blood and All Our Friends Are Dead as well as the prominent trans co-author and characters, as well as the participation and consent of real-life trans models for those characters.
Why the 5th ed label? I don’t know this one.
What’s up with The Second Inquisition and “globalists”? Vampires are hunted by spy-types and corporations and and police etc internationally. If you’ve ever read Kenneth Hite’s “Night’s Black Agents” which was spies versus vampires, it’s a similar concept, though different in execution and scope.
Why is something as “evil” as neo-naziism on vampires’ radar? In short: White Wolf wants this edition to be more “real” and gritty feeling than previous editions. That’s their aesthetic. Less fantasy more grounded horror. And Martin and co live in Europe and are terrified, watching the rise of right wing governments in horror. Nazis are bad, realist horror can include political horror.
Why did White Wolf “take sides” in the Zak S thing? Because they vetted me extremely extensively before hiring me and meant what they said. I legit did nothing wrong. Claims that I committed any hate crimes or that I organized for a disgruntled RPG freelancers kids to be threatened turned out to not be true and there was extensive evidence and it’s all public. Since all the alleged bad behavior was online, it was all recorded, and so there is no element of “your word against theirs” you can just look at the original conversations and transcripts . People who go “Yes he did!” have provided no evidence at all except links to one another’s accusations, people going “No he didn’t” have provided 100% conclusive evidence. http://armsinthewronghands.tumblr.com/post/167447123123/timeline-of-the-zak-wars tl;dr: Sheltered gamers with conservative ideas about sex developing conspiracy theories against me and the women I work with. All the companies I’ve worked with take claims of harassment seriously and, again, they wouldn’t have hired me in the first place if their research had established any of this was true. You can see the level of the accusations in the trolling below this comment, it’s just random bad faith misogyny against my players, etc from highly-invested trolls essentially.
Relationship with Onyx Path? I don’t know.
How is White Wolf going to create a game Nazis won’t want to play? If they keep doing what they have been doing: By constantly making public statements excoriating Naziism, buy resisting right-wing approaches to art-making and resisting pressure from right wing and conservative groups to harass creators into making a tamer product.
I should also again note that the dog’s article, in addition to its other flaws, was a work of harassment: it smears a Jewish antigamergater (me) as a nazi and a gamergater http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2015/02/were-not-playing-d-with-escapist-ever.html . Any claims the dog might make to be against harassment are empty.
There’s also a conspiracy theory about one of the two trans characters the Vampire mobile game that Sarah Horrocks and I created. We can address that here as well. Heres Sarah’s take–she’s trans, cowrote and co-drew the ap and I got her the job:
”
http://mercurialblonde.tumblr.com/post/157525001658
Sarah Horrocks on avery / bailey jay
It’s odd that I’m being lectured at to what the qualities of a transphobe may or may not be. Getting “actually’d” about transphobia or transmisogny is pretty surreal. It was put to me, whether I knew I had worked with a transphobe or not. Not someone who said a transphobic thing before–but someone who as a condition of their being, they hate transgender people. I remember when the transphobic allegations were first made, because it was during a time when Mandy was super sick, so all of that was kind of happening at once, and of course as a transwoman who knew Zak, I was interested in looking at the allegations. I found them to be dishonest in their representation. And that in conjunction with my personal experiences, which I already outlined concluded that Zak wasn’t transphobic. Also I think the representation of my relationship to Zak has been kind of distorted. He knows me through my comics and comics criticism. He was someone who bought Hecate Snake Diaries Vol. 1 when it came out, and one of the things I rail against in comics is how people only care about supporting fictional diversity and don’t care about supporting real people in these industries. Zak is someone who has constantly supported my work as an artist in a way that I wish more people who gave lip service to supporting outsider voices did. He’s not the only one, but he’s notable in the lengths he’s gone to. So I don’t think it is unreasonable given that experience with Zak, and given the disingenuous way that the allegations about him being transphobic were made–and then given that the same people were misrepresenting the game to my face–like so on side I had people I’ve never met before, hiding behind screennames lying to me, but asking me to believe something that is the exact opposite of the experience I’ve personally had with someone, and an experience that is mirrored by other transwomen who are friends with Zak. You are certainly free to believe what you want–but surely you have to see how my position is a reasonable one, and you can see the logic behind how I arrived at it.
I think the more logical conclusion is not that Zak is transphobic, but that he has both agreed and disagreed to varying degrees with people who are transgender. Hell, I’ve had arguments with Zak before. It’s actually why I was comfortable working with him, because I knew we could disagree and that he would listen to me, and I would listen to him. I think that level of trust is essential creatively.
The reason I’m talking about this aspect of everything, and not the other harassment charges, is because as a transwoman this particular avenue is part of a very important discussion for me personally. And I’m aware of the basis of those allegations. The rest of it, I’ve found hard to follow, and I’ve tried, but there’s a continual disconnect between what I’m told is behind a link, and what is. And not being familiar with gaming or the people in it, or their competing agendas, I don’t feel comfortable telling people that what they are saying happened did or didn’t happen. Which I think is a reasonable thing for me to do. And hopefully people can respect that.
As for the other, I sent a longer article to whitewolf which I think might get put out at some point, giving my own perspective on the Avery character. But I did want to pushback on your and others discomfort with the character referring to her genitalia. It’s something I tweeted about the other day, but I’ll put it here too, because I think it is important. So I’d say, no one really has the right to tell a transgender person how to refer to or not refer to their genitalia. The Avery character is based on Zak’s friend Baily Jay, who if you follow her on twitter you will see is someone who is very body positive in a way that I find very empowering as a transwoman. So often we are told in conversations like this, to be honest, that we should be ashamed of our genitals. Particularly if you are a transwoman who has not had SRS. You are shamed for that, even though that barrier is largely a monetary one. It is amazing, cisgender people comment on our genitalia constantly, and have no qualms about asking about it, but if we either in real life, or in fiction talk about our own genetalia, particularly if it doesn’t subscribe to how cisgender people would like, then we’re attacked for doing it.
This shame is actually something that is omnipresent in my own work, and if I can get anything else out in my art, it’s that cisgender people have no right to make transgender people feel ashamed for fucking genitalia, and transgender people should not FEEL ashamed. But it is a connnnnstant. And it’s very easy as a transwoman to just feel so ashamed of your body, in particular your genitalia, that you just shut down and stop trying. But what I like about people like Bailey, and characters like Avery–or just like bad bitch cisgender women who are body positive–is the strength to be like “fuck me? no fuck you”. I want to survive. I want characters who are bold, who want to survive. I don’t want narratives that are about making cisgender people see transgender people as people they should patronize and feel sorry for. We are awesome. We are beautiful. And we’re not backing down. Alexander McQueen once said about the clothes he was making, that he wanted to make clothes that scared men about women. I want transgender narratives like that. Where we are so bold, and fierce, that you’d be terrified to do something as stupid as tell us that we can or can’t talk about our genitalia. And you don’t think with all of these bathroom bills coming out, that I wouldn’t mind a transgender vampire like Avery running around fucking up bigots–I mean what is fiction if not the place for those kind of heroes.
It sucks that people running around saying this game is transphobic is going to run transgender people off the game, because the game itself is extremely inclusive, and it’s actually BY a transgender creator, not just cisgender men trying to profit off of the depiction of one. I mean how many transgender vampires are there even so far in fiction? Let alone on this level of platform?
I dunno. I’ve found the whole experience crazy. I’ve managed to be a part of a work that has united gamergater trolls and people supposedly for LGBTQ rights.
It’s also been a bit of a drain on my emotional resources for a work for hire situation when my emphasis is comics. Which is why I don’t plan to work on any more games in the future. It would be one thing to deal with comics over something like this, I know the terrain, I know the people, and I care deeply about the medium. Gaming though? It’s not worth it for me. I’ve lost several days of working on comics already for something that I thought was just going to be like…a game that came out, people reacted to the game one way or the other, and I would just keep going on with my comics work. I didn’t realize it would be days of answering emails, or a mass linkage of my name with the idea that the work I had made was transphobic. If I’m going to get torn down over something, let it be a comic at least!
Anyways. I’m sure something in this lengthy response is just going to make someone somewhere madder. But the transgender issues of this are important to me, and I do care about their characterization, particularly since I think about them every day of my life.
”
Part of the conspiracy theory is also that the character “Avery” is named after the designer of Monsterhearts supposedly to make fun of her–which doesn’t make sense since Avery of Monsterhearts and I never had any kind of significant conflict. That was made up by one of the harassers– Jay Allen.
I don’t suppose we can remove the obvious and large picture of a swastika that is immediately previewed on all social media shares of this article? Kinda defeats the purpose…
There’s a big chunk of this article about how some evil vampires in the World of Darkness are Nazis. Also pointed out is the fact that in-game Nazis are not the same as publishers including dog whistle calls to Nazi causes — which this article does not contain. I mean, there are Nazis in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom but that doesn’t mean that movie is supporting the Nazi cause. Is it the case that you just don’t want to see the swastika? Not ever?
Zak S is a lousy human being and has been verbally harassing people in person and online (most notably the RPG subreddit) for years. His involvement with VtM 5th is enough for me to abstain from touching the product, because as much as I’ve enjoyed the games over the years, I refuse to see a penny go to him. Playing the fingerpointing game with the political spectrum (don’t care which end, not my horse, not my race) on the subject of tolerance while coddling someone so overtly toxic is blatantly hypocritical.
meanwhile CCP is happy to host neo nazis in their EVE online tournaments… what a world
There’s nothing wrong with being anti-fascist. Period.
That’s because far right is wrong.
I’m Vonigner. I asked some of the hard questions, including the W5 one about trans misfortune (from one of my followers).
This came from my questioning about wtf was going on, which I posted about right here: http://secretsofthemasquerade.tumblr.com/post/175792930194/what-the-fuck-is-happening-with-v5-neonazis-and
And while I honestly thought the WoD Preludes were bad games, mechanically, visually, and from the messages that they both had, I won’t let anyone attack Sarah for being Trans or misrepresent Zak (above) as gamer-gater or nazi (both of which he is not).
Hopefully WWP will stop being “edgy for edge sake” and start consulting poli sci and sociologists for their world build, cuz we SURE as hell need them.
I thought he wasn’t hired back for freelance work since the mobile game thing a year or two ago?
How is that bad?
It’s not bad at all, though some gamers are disappointed that they had to say it.
More that targets of hate want control of how and when they encounter hate speech and hate symbols. There are number of people in this world, particularly those descended from holocaust survivors, who don’t want to open Facebook or Twitter while taking a coffee break and work and find their feed unexpectedly filled with Nazi flags.
So many people in my social circles have linked this article that when I scroll through Facebook, it’s swastika after swastika after swastika. Sitting down to watch Indiana Jones or Captain America or any other WWII movie is a different situation – you know what you’re getting into and your ready for it.
I’m not someone who finds Nazi imagery personally disturbing (unsurprising since I’m not a target of their hatred), and it sounds like you aren’t either. But we can have compassion for those are ARE targets of hate by not filling their feeds with hate imagery without warning.
I promise you that finding a different image for the header (or just a second image so people could choose which to show in link previews) takes very little work and would be appreciated by many.
Yeah, if you had any proof and not just accusations, that would be great. You’re just making empty statements here..
I’m not sure I agree or understand but I do concede that changing it would take very little effort and so I’ve tweaked the open graph meta tags to point to the picture of Jason Carl instead. I’m afraid I can’t even guess it/when FB’s cache for the article will update.
I am glad they made a blanket statement that was direct and not open for interpretation.
I am also glad as a Trans player and author they apologized for the W5 content. While I don’t personally find it offensive the apology was appreciated.
I do think the content was poorly worded in a few places and perhaps too simplified for a 1/4 panel on a single page, but as a Trans player who has pretty severe dysphoria – yeah being as Werewolf and unable to do anything about it would be a horror show. I think the various tribes responses, while again grammatically/textually framed poorly, are in line with the long history of WtA.
So congrats White Wolf, Jason, for what it’s worth you won me back today.
Please keep your promise on doing better.
I thank you for asking and agree with you on this :)
I haven’t read the entire preview, are there far left/antifa references in there?
Who wrote the part with the 1488 reference?
Who wrote the 1488 reference?
And far right is … what?
Maybe it would be cool to talk to people who lived under far left systems and are still alive to talk about it? Would help to get a proper state of mind…
I consulted on 5e in Stockholm a week before the mobille game came out
BasileosAlexios here, wooho my question got featured on an article.
So yeah Jason’s answer was that NO HATE of ANY group, left or right, has any space on the fandom, which I agree 100%. I mod the biggest Mage community of my home country and I’m tired of watching good threads derail into Left vs Right fights that have nothing to do with RPG, and since Jason had already said his piece on RW stupidity I needed something about LW stupidity (Antifas are considered a hate group according to the law there because they fly a flag responsible for the death of a bajillion people related to the thousands of Ukrainians who emigrated to the region I was born and raised). Please understand that my question was not some sort of attack on anybody, I just needed a straight answer about whether or not WW was taking a partisan stance or if they were really against hatred : ) hopefully the stream will put all the political discussion to bed and we can move on to much more interesting subjects related to the actual game and not to things happening outside of it : )
Over course this is first comment. If you think fighting hatred is the same is defending people from hatred, you’re either a brainwash fool or part of the problem.
Thanks. “I don’t quite understand but I’m listening anyway” marks you as one of the good guys. :)
RPG Voldemort raises his head and makes it about himself. Don’t bother. I saw you engage in harassment with my own two word on a few Google+ threads . One woman disagreed with you, and, BOOM! :”You antisex prude! How dare you attack me and my girlfriend! You ableist fuck!”
Your gaming material is on point, but your attitude is fucking horrible.
Yours isn’t the only feminism and sex positivity. Yours isn’t the only form of trans acceptance.
How trolling can you get seriously :’)
The holodomer is literally fascist propaganda. So cut that shit out.
That statement, in itself, is a fascist sentiment. You are a hypocrite.
Why are you defending nazis?
Clear statement against genicide supporters good.
No clear statement against genocide opponents. Also good.
Not this left equals right all over again.
https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Poll-Most-Russians-Prefer-Return-of-Soviet-Union-and-Socialism-20160420-0051.html
Go ahead and ask em.
”
I saw you engage in harassment with my own two word on a few Google+ threads “”One woman disagreed with you, and, BOOM! :”You antisex prude! How dare you attack me and my girlfriend! You ableist fuck!””
”
Thank you for this example of what you mean when you say “harassment”. I am sure it is clarifying for audiences who still have questions.
If you have a link to the thread so we can confirm your story I’m sure that would help even more.
Jason Carl rejected the notion that these two things are equivalent, as do most people.
“Zak you can be very harsh with fans”
You mean these fans that pretend antifa is as bad as Nazis?
It may come as a surprise that the majority of players just don’t care. It is sad that a company that produces content has to defend it against a tiny minority of people and the rest of us shrug our shoulders and move on. If a picture triggers you can I suggest desensitivity training or just find something else to fill in your time.
But for the rest of us most have had enough of this guff and wish that people would just grow up and not feel the need to drag it down to some left right argument that just goes around in circles.
False equivalency also bad, or does Antifa have a body count yet?
You may be liberal, but you are one of the most vile, bigoted, entitled, internet trolls and bullies I have ever dealt with, and you false innocence of, “Who, me?,” when you instigate your knuckle dragging fan base into attacking people is nauseating. You’re a vapid, hollow egomaniac of Trump-like proportions, hiding behind a sex positive lifestyle, that’s only positive (for sex, or anything else) when it’s convenient for you. You are, quite literally, the worst the left has to offer, (I say this as a liberal) because you’re only liberal and tolerant when you feel proper reverence for the glory that is you is paid. I questioned you on -one- thing, and you launched an internet harassment campaign against me that caused me to abandon my email address, numerous social media accounts, and my phone number, to get peace from the slavering horde you sent after me. I didn’t even accuse you of doing anything wrong, or insult you, I just dared question something, and you fucking lost it.
I, quite frankly, am sick of your extreme bigotry, hatred, and malice, being masked as you just being such a special unicorn that no one gets it.
No one hates you because your sex free. Well, some do, but most hate you because you use that as a shield to shit on everyone that doesn’t agree with you on everything, and then you’re gods gift to whatever you’re interested in that day.
A pox upon you.
“The holodomer is literally fascist propaganda.”
Anyone want to play ‘pin the tail on the Tankie’?
…In other news… White Wolf still exists?
Because it’s a false equivalency and they know it.
Yeah, I’m sure the alt-right is devastated that a progressive publisher just apologized for using the word “Triggered” while refusing to condemn a domestic terrorist organization.
Really shook their convictions to the core with that one. That isn’t howling gales of laughter you hear.
False equivalence is false.
Centrism is literally saying ‘as long as Nazis don’t kill ALL the Jews it is ok”.
Except that the Left is anti-isreal and has been electing anti-semites of late. Also the nazi’s were were socialist. Hate is hate and can come from anywhere. I’m not left or right before you make an assumption.
A great way to undermine any comment you have on this hot topic is to say ‘the nazi’s were socialist’ as if you’ve only just discovered the full name of the political party. Do you know what; they lied.
Snopes has a good entry level article on it.
More importantly, can Wyrms get turned into lawn furniture again?
Signed,
And AK Bro.
The Far-Right want to rid the world of anyone who isn’t like them.
The Left just want to stop the Far-Right.
Sir. With all due respect, you have been a bit of an asshole on the net now and then. I think you should own up to that. I know at least two people engaged in White Wolf so I know the nazicharge is wrong, but at the same time, maybe you personally should take some selfcritiscism? iTS THE ADULT THING TO DO. Just saying. “1488”, “triggered” in conjunction witht he fight a few years ago?
That’s because there isn’t a global far-left resurgence attacking people and communities. There’s no far-left President of a major power openly endorsing and spreading racist propaganda. Far-left terrorists didn’t walk into mosques and night clubs to commit mass murder any time recently.
And there damn well weren’t any “far-left” assholes visible in the White Wolf audience… unlike the commenters on their facebook page who quite clearly endorsed a far-right world view.
The far left have been basically dead for forty years. Why the hell would White Wolf need to make a statement about them?
(Unless you believe the American alt-rights hysterical anti-social-democracy propaganda, in which everyone who isn’t a raving neo-Nazi fanatic is a sinister agent of the “far left” – or as people in non-US countries call it, centre-right.)
That’s a fallacy, the far-left is still out there and is destroying countries, look at Venezuela or Nicaragua. so don’t come saying that in non-US countries far left= centre-right. and the actual left in the US of today with all his claims of post-modernism are really only rehashing marxism under the table… that’s why so many of the so called “liberals” are now calling themself Classic liberals and joinnig the movement #walkaway
Lol, like Nicaragua and venezuela who suffered far more from American capitalistic interventions, blokus and embargo?? :D How about the far left many French cities have, with actual ™ communist mayors? :D
Voniger speaking like a true ignorant. But the body count that Ortega and Maduro have in those countries right now disagree with you.
Have you been paying attention to recent events? Leftists don’t go around threatening immigrants or setting fire to Mosques. Leftist don’t produce nonsensical fake news nor do they attack pride marches and the like.
There is no reason to make a statement against the left like there is to condemn the far right.
What I liked about WoD/White Wolf, at least back in the 90’s, was its unapologetic expression of the ugliness of the human condition. It provided a system where-in we, as young people, adults, teens, whatever, could explore the darker, evil side of our natures. We could expose ourselves to darker and darker and darker experiences of the monsters that live in all of our psychies…And all of these experiences were justified through the worlds created by WoD. They did this by forcing us to play as ACTUAL MONSTERS.
It’s a shame that WW is pandering, acknowledging, or even entertaining or defending their game world to the extremist views of the noisy minority…It had always been, to be, an exercise in exploring either extremes to its fullest…Be it the tree hugging Garou or dreamspeaker, the Death and destruction forces of the Wyrm (Sabbat, Fomor, BSD), the static conservatism of the Weaver (the Glasswalkers, Technocracy, et al) or the Chaotic denizens of disorder, like the ratkin….Or the more political evilness on all sides of parasitic predators, the vampires.
WoD had been a world where we could all examine our own darkest sides no matter what theme.
Now?
I hope they haven’t lost their way.
Please, WW, be what you have always been. Don’t apologize for it. Don’t make excuses. If you do, and you cater to this crap on either the right or left spectrum of ideological activism, you are going to drift away into obscurity and miss a grand opportunity to continue your legacy.